Deposition of Nancy Salzman, 2000




 2   NORTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK                       

 3   -------------------------------------------

 4   IN RE:    TONI F. NATALIE,              Chapter 7

                          Debtor,            Case No. 99-16195

 5   -------------------------------------------


 7                        Plaintiff,

 8             -against-                     Adv. Proc. No. 00-90169



11                        Defendants.                  

12   ---------------------------------------------------------

13                  STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF Deposition

14             conducted of Plaintiff, NANCY SALZMAN, on the

15             15th day of November, 2000, at the offices of

16             Whiteman, Osterman & Hanna, One Commerce Plaza,

17             Albany, New York commencing at 10:59 a.m.;

18             before ELLEN J. FRANKOVITCH, a Shorthand

19             Reporter and Notary Public within and for the

20             State of New York.








     One Commerce Plaza

 3   Albany, New York 12260

     On behalf of Plaintiff;




     Suite 142, The Powers Building

 7   16 West Main Street

     Rochester, New York 14614-1601

 8   On behalf of Defendant.



     636 Plank Road, Suite 108

11   Clifton Park, New York 12065

     On behalf of Keith Raniere.





16                  JOAN SCHNEIER










 1                    S T I P U L A T I O N S


 3                  It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and

 4             between the attorneys for the respective

 5             parties hereto that the signing and filing of

 6             the Notary's Oath be waived; that the

 7             examination be conducted before Ellen J.

 8             Frankovitch, a Shorthand Reporter and Notary

 9             Public in and for the State of New York; that

10             the filing of the transcript of testimony in

11             the Office of the Clerk of the Court be waived;

12             that the examining party will furnish the

13             examined party one copy of the transcript of

14             testimony as taken without cost or charge; that

15             all objections to questions, except as to the

16             form thereof, are specifically reserved to the

17             time of trial; and that the transcript of

18             testimony may be signed before any Notary

19             Public or other officer authorized to

20             administer oaths.






 1                        NANCY SALZMAN,

 2                  (having been first duly sworn by the

 3             Notary Public, was examined and testified as

 4             follows:)

 5   BY MR. RUDIN:

 6   Q.   Ms. Salzman, can you tell us where you reside.

 7   A.   7 Grant Hill Road, Clifton Park, New York.

 8   Q.   Do you reside there with anyone other than yourself? 

 9   A.   My daughter.

10   Q.   What is your daughter's name?

11   A.   Lauren.

12   Q.   How old is she?

13   A.   24.

14   Q.   Can you tell us your age?

15   A.   I'm 46.

16   Q.   And can you tell us what your educational background

17        is.

18   A.   I'm a nurse.  I have a college degree in nursing.

19   Q.   What kind of degree?

20   A.   I have a bachelor's degree in nursing. 

21   Q.   Bachelor of science or bachelor of arts?

22   A.   Bachelor's of science in nursing.

23   Q.   Any other degrees beyond that?

24   A.   No.


 1   Q.   Any other professional training beyond that?

 2   A.   Well, I have a lot of professional training beyond

 3        that.

 4   Q.   Can you tell us what your professional training

 5        beyond nursing is?

 6   A.   I have several years of Ericksonian training.

 7   Q.   Can you tell us what that is?

 8   A.   It's a post-graduate type of training that taught me

 9        how to use and apply brief solution-based models of

10        therapy and hypnosis.  And also I took a course at

11        Columbia University in hypnosis, but that was given

12        with Dr. Herbert Siegel. 

13   Q.   Is the training you received in this Ericksonian

14        method, was it through a college or private

15        institution or was it individual?

16   A.   There were several types of trainings I took.  I

17        took a series of courses through the National

18        Institutes of Health.  I took -- that was given in

19        Bethesda, Maryland.  I took a series of courses at

20        Reuters University.  And then I took a series of

21        courses that were given privately by different

22        practitioners of the Ericksonian therapeutic method.

23   Q.   Can you tell us what the Ericksonian method is, or

24        at least generalize?


 1   A.   Milton Erickson is considered to be one of the

 2        foremost experts in clinical hypnoses in the world,

 3        and there's an Ericksonian Foundation that offers

 4        courses all over the world.  And he is considered to

 5        be the founder of brief solution-based models of

 6        therapy.  So I've taken many of those courses since

 7        1979.

 8   Q.   Can you tell us what brief solutions means?

 9   A.   Originally when I started studying this, it was a

10        new approach to therapy back in the '70s.  Now, it's

11        the standard accepted type of therapy.

12   Q.   When you say therapy, what kind of therapy?

13   A.   Psychotherapy.

14   Q.   Is it geared to any specific or special type of

15        ailments?

16   A.   It's a general approach to working with people who

17        have psychological issues, problems.

18   Q.   Does it entail prescribing any medication?

19   A.   No.

20   Q.   Now, you said you took a course at Columbia that was

21        sort of a similar type thing but on hypnosis? 

22   A.   That was more traditional hypnosis.

23   Q.   What other professional training or professional

24        endeavors have you taken part in?


 1   A.   I took several courses in neurolinguistic

 2        programming.

 3   Q.   What is that?

 4   A.   It's a model of behavioral change.  It's a blend of

 5        behavioral and cognitive psychology and formal

 6        linguistics.

 7   Q.   Where did you take those courses?

 8   A.   All over the country.

 9   Q.   Through recognized universities or recognized

10        educational programs?

11   A.   NLP is taught through different institutions all

12        over the country.

13   Q.   What types of institutions?

14   A.   There's an institution in New Town, Pennsylvania

15        called the Eastern NLP Institute.  I took training

16        from Connie Ray and Steve Andrus.  They have the

17        largest institute in the country and I can't

18        remember the name right now.  It's in Colorado.  I

19        took courses from Robert Dilts, one of the founders,

20        and Richard Banbler, who's also one of the founders. 

21        And courses from John Grinder, who was also one of

22        the founders, and Tad James.  And Wyatt Wood Small.

23   Q.   In your professional -- as a professional, how would

24        you use neurolinguistics?  What does it do, what is


 1        its purpose?

 2   A.   It's a model for human behavior change.

 3   Q.   Well, that's very general.  What did you do with it;

 4        beat people up to make them change, put them in dark

 5        rooms?  You must do something to make people change. 

 6        Tell us what you do or what NLP does.

 7   A.   It's a type of -- it's a cognitive approach where

 8        you can talk to the person.  It has a model of

 9        change; it has several different techniques to work

10        with.

11   Q.   You talk to people.  I'm just trying to figure

12        out -- I mean, most psychologists, psychiatrists,

13        they talk to people, but obviously this is something

14        different than traditional psychiatry or

15        psychoanalysis?

16   A.   They use different models as well.  They might use a

17        Freudian model or Gestalt model.  This is an NLP

18        model.  

19   Q.   Is it recognized by practicing psychiatrists in this

20        country?

21   A.   When you say recognized?

22   Q.   Well, if you look in a book that's published either

23        by or for psychologists that are physicians, would

24        they recognize this as a model that would be useful


 1        for them?

 2   A.   There are psychiatrists who use this model.

 3   Q.   I take it, obviously, the rest --

 4   A.   And psychologists and social workers who do use this

 5        model.  There are many different models used in the

 6        field.

 7   Q.   Can you tell me, what does that model mean?  I know

 8        what Freudian does or what it is.  What does NLP do

 9        that's different than Freudian? 

10   A.   The goals are the same.

11   Q.   To cure the person or to change?

12   A.   To help the person make behavioral changes.

13   Q.   The methods are different, I take it?

14   A.   Yes.

15   Q.   What methods does NLP use to try to get people to

16        change?  In general, then I'll go specific.  But in

17        general?

18   A.   I don't understand what you mean by methods.

19   Q.   Do you use hypnosis?  Do you use sound deprivation,

20        light deprivation, sleep deprivation?

21   A.   There are a series of techniques in NLP, and NLP

22        uses things that are called reframing,

23        submodalities, belief change procedures, parts

24        integrations.  These are the names of techniques.


 1   Q.   How do you perform those techniques?

 2   A.   By talking to the person.

 3   Q.   It's just talking?

 4   A.   It's a talking type of a therapy that acts as a

 5        conscious and unconscious process.

 6   Q.   Does it also use hypnosis? 

 7   A.   It accesses different states.  Not deep trance, if

 8        that's what you're referring to.

 9   Q.   You're not putting somebody in a trance; you're

10        basically speaking to people, trying to communicate?

11   A.   For the most part, that's correct.

12   Q.   The hypnosis part of your training would be separate

13        from NLP?

14   A.   Correct.

15   Q.   What period of time did you take these NLP courses? 

16   A.   I started in 1985 taking neurolinguistic programming

17        courses, and I took them up to probably '92.

18   Q.   Where were you working at that time?

19   A.   I had my own practice here, and for a period of the

20        time I worked for different people that I was also

21        studying with.

22   Q.   Doing the same kind of thing?

23   A.   Teaching, and I learned to train and I taught NLP.

24   Q.   Before your learning training NLP and NLP, what was


 1        your employment before that?

 2   A.   Before learning NLP?

 3   Q.   Yes.

 4   A.   I worked with my husband at that time, who was a

 5        physician, and I saw clients and did some

 6        counselling.

 7   Q.   What kind of physician was he?

 8   A.   He was an internist.

 9   Q.   They're not necessarily related to what he did and

10        what you did?

11   A.   We did it in the same office and shared patients.

12   Q.   He's an internist and you're giving psychological

13        counselling, whatever; correct?

14   A.   I did counselling. 

15   Q.   With his patients? 

16   A.   With his and some other physicians as well. 

17   Q.   And before that?

18   A.   That's it.  I worked in a hospital for a year.

19   Q.   What was your nursing specialty, if any?

20   A.   Well, my -- I didn't have a nursing specialty, per

21        se.

22   Q.   You weren't like a surgical nurse, for instance?

23   A.   No.

24   Q.   Just a general nursing degree?


 1   A.   Yes.  

 2   Q.   You say you had an office with your husband.  Were

 3        you a licensed psychologist at the time?

 4   A.   No.

 5   Q.   Do you need to get a license to be a psychologist?

 6   A.   No -- you need a license to be a psychologist, yes. 

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