1 UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY COURT
2 NORTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
4 IN RE: TONI F. NATALIE, Chapter 7
Debtor, Case No. 99-16195
6 NANCY SALZMAN,
8 -against- Adv. Proc. No. 00-90169
9 TONI F. NATALIE and NATIONAL HEALTH OUTLET-A
10 PLACE OF CREATIONS, INC.,
13 STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF Deposition
14 conducted of Plaintiff, NANCY SALZMAN, on the
15 15th day of November, 2000, at the offices of
16 Whiteman, Osterman & Hanna, One Commerce Plaza,
17 Albany, New York commencing at 10:59 a.m.;
18 before ELLEN J. FRANKOVITCH, a Shorthand
19 Reporter and Notary Public within and for the
20 State of New York.
2 WHITEMAN, OSTERMAN & HANNA
One Commerce Plaza
3 Albany, New York 12260
On behalf of Plaintiff;
4 BY: MARGARET CANGILOS-RUIZ, ESQ.
6 MICHAEL B. RUDIN, ESQ.
Suite 142, The Powers Building
7 16 West Main Street
Rochester, New York 14614-1601
8 On behalf of Defendant.
10 JAMES P. TRAINOR, ESQ.
636 Plank Road, Suite 108
11 Clifton Park, New York 12065
On behalf of Keith Raniere.
15 ALSO PRESENT: TONI NATALIE
16 JOAN SCHNEIER
1 S T I P U L A T I O N S
3 It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and
4 between the attorneys for the respective
5 parties hereto that the signing and filing of
6 the Notary's Oath be waived; that the
7 examination be conducted before Ellen J.
8 Frankovitch, a Shorthand Reporter and Notary
9 Public in and for the State of New York; that
10 the filing of the transcript of testimony in
11 the Office of the Clerk of the Court be waived;
12 that the examining party will furnish the
13 examined party one copy of the transcript of
14 testimony as taken without cost or charge; that
15 all objections to questions, except as to the
16 form thereof, are specifically reserved to the
17 time of trial; and that the transcript of
18 testimony may be signed before any Notary
19 Public or other officer authorized to
20 administer oaths.
1 NANCY SALZMAN,
2 (having been first duly sworn by the
3 Notary Public, was examined and testified as
5 BY MR. RUDIN:
6 Q. Ms. Salzman, can you tell us where you reside.
7 A. 7 Grant Hill Road, Clifton Park, New York.
8 Q. Do you reside there with anyone other than yourself?
9 A. My daughter.
10 Q. What is your daughter's name?
11 A. Lauren.
12 Q. How old is she?
13 A. 24.
14 Q. Can you tell us your age?
15 A. I'm 46.
16 Q. And can you tell us what your educational background
18 A. I'm a nurse. I have a college degree in nursing.
19 Q. What kind of degree?
20 A. I have a bachelor's degree in nursing.
21 Q. Bachelor of science or bachelor of arts?
22 A. Bachelor's of science in nursing.
23 Q. Any other degrees beyond that?
24 A. No.
1 Q. Any other professional training beyond that?
2 A. Well, I have a lot of professional training beyond
4 Q. Can you tell us what your professional training
5 beyond nursing is?
6 A. I have several years of Ericksonian training.
7 Q. Can you tell us what that is?
8 A. It's a post-graduate type of training that taught me
9 how to use and apply brief solution-based models of
10 therapy and hypnosis. And also I took a course at
11 Columbia University in hypnosis, but that was given
12 with Dr. Herbert Siegel.
13 Q. Is the training you received in this Ericksonian
14 method, was it through a college or private
15 institution or was it individual?
16 A. There were several types of trainings I took. I
17 took a series of courses through the National
18 Institutes of Health. I took -- that was given in
19 Bethesda, Maryland. I took a series of courses at
20 Reuters University. And then I took a series of
21 courses that were given privately by different
22 practitioners of the Ericksonian therapeutic method.
23 Q. Can you tell us what the Ericksonian method is, or
24 at least generalize?
1 A. Milton Erickson is considered to be one of the
2 foremost experts in clinical hypnoses in the world,
3 and there's an Ericksonian Foundation that offers
4 courses all over the world. And he is considered to
5 be the founder of brief solution-based models of
6 therapy. So I've taken many of those courses since
8 Q. Can you tell us what brief solutions means?
9 A. Originally when I started studying this, it was a
10 new approach to therapy back in the '70s. Now, it's
11 the standard accepted type of therapy.
12 Q. When you say therapy, what kind of therapy?
13 A. Psychotherapy.
14 Q. Is it geared to any specific or special type of
16 A. It's a general approach to working with people who
17 have psychological issues, problems.
18 Q. Does it entail prescribing any medication?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Now, you said you took a course at Columbia that was
21 sort of a similar type thing but on hypnosis?
22 A. That was more traditional hypnosis.
23 Q. What other professional training or professional
24 endeavors have you taken part in?
1 A. I took several courses in neurolinguistic
3 Q. What is that?
4 A. It's a model of behavioral change. It's a blend of
5 behavioral and cognitive psychology and formal
7 Q. Where did you take those courses?
8 A. All over the country.
9 Q. Through recognized universities or recognized
10 educational programs?
11 A. NLP is taught through different institutions all
12 over the country.
13 Q. What types of institutions?
14 A. There's an institution in New Town, Pennsylvania
15 called the Eastern NLP Institute. I took training
16 from Connie Ray and Steve Andrus. They have the
17 largest institute in the country and I can't
18 remember the name right now. It's in Colorado. I
19 took courses from Robert Dilts, one of the founders,
20 and Richard Banbler, who's also one of the founders.
21 And courses from John Grinder, who was also one of
22 the founders, and Tad James. And Wyatt Wood Small.
23 Q. In your professional -- as a professional, how would
24 you use neurolinguistics? What does it do, what is
1 its purpose?
2 A. It's a model for human behavior change.
3 Q. Well, that's very general. What did you do with it;
4 beat people up to make them change, put them in dark
5 rooms? You must do something to make people change.
6 Tell us what you do or what NLP does.
7 A. It's a type of -- it's a cognitive approach where
8 you can talk to the person. It has a model of
9 change; it has several different techniques to work
11 Q. You talk to people. I'm just trying to figure
12 out -- I mean, most psychologists, psychiatrists,
13 they talk to people, but obviously this is something
14 different than traditional psychiatry or
16 A. They use different models as well. They might use a
17 Freudian model or Gestalt model. This is an NLP
19 Q. Is it recognized by practicing psychiatrists in this
21 A. When you say recognized?
22 Q. Well, if you look in a book that's published either
23 by or for psychologists that are physicians, would
24 they recognize this as a model that would be useful
1 for them?
2 A. There are psychiatrists who use this model.
3 Q. I take it, obviously, the rest --
4 A. And psychologists and social workers who do use this
5 model. There are many different models used in the
7 Q. Can you tell me, what does that model mean? I know
8 what Freudian does or what it is. What does NLP do
9 that's different than Freudian?
10 A. The goals are the same.
11 Q. To cure the person or to change?
12 A. To help the person make behavioral changes.
13 Q. The methods are different, I take it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What methods does NLP use to try to get people to
16 change? In general, then I'll go specific. But in
18 A. I don't understand what you mean by methods.
19 Q. Do you use hypnosis? Do you use sound deprivation,
20 light deprivation, sleep deprivation?
21 A. There are a series of techniques in NLP, and NLP
22 uses things that are called reframing,
23 submodalities, belief change procedures, parts
24 integrations. These are the names of techniques.
1 Q. How do you perform those techniques?
2 A. By talking to the person.
3 Q. It's just talking?
4 A. It's a talking type of a therapy that acts as a
5 conscious and unconscious process.
6 Q. Does it also use hypnosis?
7 A. It accesses different states. Not deep trance, if
8 that's what you're referring to.
9 Q. You're not putting somebody in a trance; you're
10 basically speaking to people, trying to communicate?
11 A. For the most part, that's correct.
12 Q. The hypnosis part of your training would be separate
13 from NLP?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. What period of time did you take these NLP courses?
16 A. I started in 1985 taking neurolinguistic programming
17 courses, and I took them up to probably '92.
18 Q. Where were you working at that time?
19 A. I had my own practice here, and for a period of the
20 time I worked for different people that I was also
21 studying with.
22 Q. Doing the same kind of thing?
23 A. Teaching, and I learned to train and I taught NLP.
24 Q. Before your learning training NLP and NLP, what was
1 your employment before that?
2 A. Before learning NLP?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. I worked with my husband at that time, who was a
5 physician, and I saw clients and did some
7 Q. What kind of physician was he?
8 A. He was an internist.
9 Q. They're not necessarily related to what he did and
10 what you did?
11 A. We did it in the same office and shared patients.
12 Q. He's an internist and you're giving psychological
13 counselling, whatever; correct?
14 A. I did counselling.
15 Q. With his patients?
16 A. With his and some other physicians as well.
17 Q. And before that?
18 A. That's it. I worked in a hospital for a year.
19 Q. What was your nursing specialty, if any?
20 A. Well, my -- I didn't have a nursing specialty, per
22 Q. You weren't like a surgical nurse, for instance?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Just a general nursing degree?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You say you had an office with your husband. Were
3 you a licensed psychologist at the time?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you need to get a license to be a psychologist?
6 A. No -- you need a license to be a psychologist, yes.